MOGLEN: Well, if you look at the computer science 101 syllabi of universities in India, Southeast Asia, Indonesia, if you go on the web and look at these, the CS 101 curriculum in these universities assumes that people are using a Linux based computer rather than a Windows based computer. I mean, it`s free. So, Singapore and Thailand and Malaysia are going to produce a lot of young adults who learned about computers using free software; the computers in their homes are going to be free-software computers; their children are going to grow up with free software computers. Which bunch of people are going to be the talented, engaging, aggressive programmers, busy making changes?

WORTHINGTON: So, culturally, you see the collective decision to use Windows as one which forecloses the possibilities of generations down the road?

MOGLEN: Well, it`s a decision to have fewer programmers. The whole point of free is freedom to change, not low cost, and the whole point of the world towards which we are moving is that the primary power distinction, the class line, is between those people who know how to change the behavior of computers and those people who don`t. Because that kind of knowledge, in particular, the ability to interact with complex technological systems to alter their behavior, is power over ordinary daily life in a profound way.

WORTHINGTON: So what civic obligations does that leave us with today?

MOGLEN: Well, I don`t want to be dogmatic about what other people`s responsibilities are.

WORTHINGTON: Go ahead.

MOGLEN: If you want to gain knowledge, you need to know these things. If you want to convey knowledge, if you want to help other people learn, you have to help them to know these things. If you want to be living in contact with the real issues, you`re going to have to know enough about the technology to see where the real issues are. If we wrote down on a list the eight or the ten most important political issues in this society at the moment, my guess is that three or four of them would be issues that you can`t understand, let alone have a good opinion about, unless you know a good deal about technology. If we wrote down the issues that we feel most nervous about, of those ten we`d probably find that three or four are places where we think that people are getting rushed out of the question already, because the guys who know are racing to lock it up beforeeverybody else figures out what`s going on.

Now, in an environment where both of those things that I have just said are true, civic duty is to learn what you need to learn in order to make the decisions in a democratic society in a grown-up way. That`s the same civic duty that Thomas Jefferson or George Washington believed in. The people who think that we need to have a democratic society are always people who are worried about whether the voters who control the society know enough, and it`s not a question of taking power away from them, it`s a question of helping them to become knowledgeable and engaged. We`ve got a duty to try and explain this stuff clearly. We`ve got a duty to learn these technologies so that we can ourselves participate, and most importantly we have a duty to look at the educational system to find out whether it teaches people who grow up in the society what they need to know.

You look again and again at how we educate people about technology in this society and again and again you see people who`ve given money to have their technology taught and to have other`s people technology not taught. Cisco Systems is a very interesting business, which is now regarded somehow as the antithesis of Microsoft. If Microsoft is bad and weak and vulnerable which it now, suddenly is thought to be, Cisco somehow is unquestionable. Well, what do they make? They make the infrastructure of the internet. What is that? We don`t know, but we buy their stock. Cisco is in fact a most extraordinary example of the paper tiger, a hollow animal. The Cisco world consists of selling at exorbitantly high prices routers which use proprietary software. So, in order to know how to program a router you have to know Cisco-talk. They spend vast amounts of money in junior colleges on vocational educational systems to teach people Cisco-talk, and those kids graduate with Cisco certification, they go to work in the businesses that need network infrastructure, and they install Cisco hardware. There`s a bilateral monopoly between technically, vocationally trained people, who have learned a proprietary way of doing things, and a manufacturer which sells goods at very high markups, because it has a proprietary, secret language.

Now, the router is in fact not a complicated entity. Many years ago we created, spontaneously, a thing called Linux-router.org, which is simply a way of providing a Linux kernel optimized for routing in a very flexible little package that fits on a 1.44 floppy disk, and routers are in fact throwaway boxes - a strong router is a 100 Mghz 486.

WORTHINGTON: That was a throwaway box five years ago.

MOGLEN: Yes, but I use one as my server. All the web stuff of mine that you read, all my e-mail, all my electronic courses, the one box that does all that work for me is a 100 Mghz box with 32 Mg of main memory in it, and I keep it that way deliberately, in order to make a point.

WORTHINGTON: I have a 133 Mghz motherboard sitting in a box under my bed.

MOGLEN: It would make a fine server. One of the fundamentally untold parts of this story is what the WinTel hard strategic alliance gave Andrew Grove, who has come out of this beautifully. Intel isn`t being broken up by the United States Government. But what the WinTel box did was create a bad, slow, bloated software division for a hardware manufacturer that needed to keep the market from saturating.

WORTHINGTON: And the way to do that is to continually escalate the demands created by bad software.

MOGLEN: Absolutely.

WORTHINGTON: And yet in the long run you feel that Windows has already lost the war.

MOGLEN: There`s no question. But the world economy would not necessarily be better off if nobody needed to buy any PCs any more. The fact that the hardware market actually saturated with all the computers we really needed years ago is not really an argument for why the society would be so much more prosperous if we stopped making them.

Rather, this is the digital divide problem in a serious way. I made a proposal to the Israeli government a year ago that went like this: Take every computer that you threw away in the state last year, just the ones you scrapped, and put free software on them. They are now the routers, bridges, switches and e-mail servers for an entire free broadband network for all of Israel. The only thing you don`t have is the cable. But you have required annual military reserve duty. Take one cycle and say everybody not performing militarily essential service is laying fiber, for one year. You are now finished. Free software, scrapped computers, one year of conscript labor, and the physical cost of the fiber and you`re done. You have a broadband network in a little, demographically concentrated country with a highly educated population, and when I talk about building a network I mean on the West Bank and Gaza too, and then you say this is a gift. We`re leaving this here. This is a little bit of what we need to do - two states, one network. And you know what, nobody will ever bomb that network, tear it up or throw it away, because that`s how, if you`re in Gaza or the West Bank, you get out to the world. That`s how you free the people you have been chaining up all these years.

Now, after I finished making that pitch, I was leaving the room, and the chief of one of the computing centers in one of the big universities turned to one of his opposite numbers and said to him in Hebrew, `Oh, these Americans, they`re so idealistic. It`s impossible.` And I said, you see, the Zionists are no longer the idealists. It`s the Americans. Now, they`ll get there eventually, but as of now, they`re not ready yet. The belief that it could actually happen isn`t there. They haven`t taken a hard look. They don`t realize it is in fact technically possible.

But the truth is, that what the digital divide means, what inequality of access means now, primarily, is a series of decisions about the allocation of hardware and software coming home to roost. We have all the computers we need. We have more computers than we need. Giving every kid in the country a computer? That`s nothing. We`re scrapping all the stuff. And software? We can provide free software to everybody. That`s no problem. We`re built for that.

What we don`t have is telecommunications infrastructure that is free. What we don`t have is the time, the online hours. This is why we need to use the spectrum to create a free net. An uncharged, birthright bandwidth system. A chapter of my book which proposes just that is not yet on the web but it`ll get there one of these months. My proposal is for a simple, birthright bandwidth structure, using just the current analog television frequencies that under the `96 Telecommunications Act the broadcasters have already promised to give up. It`s good spectrum. It goes through walls very nicely. It does all the things we need. It needs to be used as though by cell phones, with little boxes that arbitrage frequency usage directly and intelligently on a cellular broadcasting kind of model. We could give everybody who is here 400 megabits of bi-directional bandwidth. I`m sure. Maybe we could go to 600. You`re not a television broadcaster, but you`re a radio station, and if you and your friends get together, two or three of you, you can be a television station. My proposal is that bandwidth is personal to you. It`s in a box like your cell phone. You take it to work in the morning, and you contribute that bandwidth to your employer. You take it to church, to your clubs, your bowling league, wherever you go. The idea is that civil society is constituted around the notion of an equality of access to communications. Everything else falls out. Old hardware, free software, wireless infrastructure that belongs to the nation as a whole, which is already required to come back to us.

WORTHINGTON: Would this bandwidth be inalienable? Would people be able to buy and sell the bandwidth they`re born with?

MOGLEN: Well, my own judgment is that the proposition ought to be that it`s not tradable, any more than you can sell your right to drive on I-80. There`s no market in buying from you your right to drive on the public highways, and there`s no buying from you your right to drink the municipal water supply. But obviously, you can understand why people might think in those other terms. Now Nick Negroponte recommended years ago what has come to be called the Negroponte switch, which is to put all the commercial uses for all communications down on the cable lines and to recover the wireless domain for the personal communications uses which we now heavily use the cable lines for. I was listening to a rather right wing securities analyst - as though there were any other kind - talking about the telecom business six months ago, and he was talking about the long distance companies. And somebody said to him, well now they`re getting down to a nickel any time, is there any more air in that? How could that price go any lower? And he said, you must be kidding - there`s three and a half cents extra in that five cents, and he said, you know, at nights and on weekends, the price ought to be zero. And I thought, man, if the rightwing securities analysts are beginning to talk about free long distance calls, what`s left? We should be living in an environment in which the recognition is that the building of the public infrastructure allows us to render connection as completely and obviously a personal right as driving on the street or walking in the park or drinking the water or breathing the air.

WORTHINGTON: What do you see as the immediate cultural and political roadblocks in the way of that kind of a birthright reconception of bandwidth?

MOGLEN: The answer is `the invisible barbecue,` the way our politics is owned. That`s the problem. That`s why I am writing about a three-cornered entity - technology, law, and politics, in this age of corruption. That`s what we have. We`re making land rushes. We`re trying to turn everything into property. That`s the conceptualization. The relevance of encryption is that encryption is a device for turning bitstreams into property, by creating the power to exclude. When I teach property law, what is it that I am teaching people about what property is? The Supreme Court, in an image that it likes, refers to a stick in a bundle - now that bundle of sticks is the Roman thing called fasces, this word out of which we get fascism, it`s just a funny little thing that has happened to us, the sticks in the bundle, like the rods and the axes that meant power in the Roman symbology of politics - one of those sticks in the bundle is the right to exclude, and often it is that right to exclude which in capitalist society is seen as the center of property. I have a right to exclude, and therefore I can create a market, and out of the market can come all these other great things. In order to have the right to exclude from bitstreams you need encryption.

But the whole political structure that we have at the moment, the ease of getting patents, the giving away of spectrum in the `96 Act to people who already had spectrum to build an HDTV system that we notice they`re not building, the Federal Communications Commissions fundamental strategy of permitting duopolies in whole areas of their traditional regulated fields, so long as those duopolies then go out and compete in other fields against other duopolies - all these structures bear a similar sign, which is that everything is for sale because our politics is for sale, and that the law`s power to create property is now in use in a very heavy way.

Allan Greenspan gives a speech and he says, `We should beware of economic regulation and government interference in the market. Government should limit itself to creating and protecting intellectual property.` As though that weren`t regulation and intervention in the market. What we have is massive market intervention by legislators who have the power to create property rights through law and who are selling it. We can`t create a free anything, because it is ideologically deprecated for things to be free, and most importantly, because it is politically ineffective for things to be free, because making things free doesn`t bring in campaign contributions.

WORTHINGTON: And yet you seem to feel that at a certain point, the functions of these technologies are going to make irrelevant this legal apparatus trying to enforce this particular conception of property, because free software and free intellectual property will simply happen as a result of the increasing ease of communication and of creating cooperative, information sharing communities.

MOGLEN: Well, what I say at the end of "Anarchism Triumphant" is that this is the big political issue of the time, and aristocracy looks set to win. I mean, they`re in control. They have all the money; they have the politics; they have the shape of things to come in their own view. The force is with them. When I say that there are these reasons why things ought to be different, I`m talking in the same way that people were talking in rathskellers in 1848 - I mean, there ought to be democracy; there ought to be liberalism; there ought to be freedom; aristocracy ought to go; the ancien regime ought to disappear. Well, yes and no. Hence, I end with Chou En-Lai talking to Oriana Fallaci, "What`s the meaning of the French Revolution?" she says; "Too soon to tell" he says. This is a long term question. Are Rupert Murdoch and Michael Eisner going to prevail in the short term? Yes. Are they going to prevail fifty years from now? I don`t know.

In the long run, what`s going to happen? In the long run, I do not think that the path is in the direction of they will own more and more and we will become their helots. I don`t think that`s what happens. Martin Luther King Jr. said, "The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice." Now in that same broad sense, the moral arc of the universe still tends towards democracy, still tends towards freedom, still tends towards the growth of societies which enable people to be not under the control of others, either the rich or the powerful - and in that broad sense, yes, I think certain things can be said to have the weight of history behind them.

But what kills ancien regimes is not that they are reactionary. What makes the ancien regime fall is that it is modernizing. This is the problem of the French in the 1780s; this is the problem of the Iranians in the 1970s; this will be the problem of the Chinese in the next decade. When you modernize, when you begin the process of change and to enable new forms of human growth and expression, there is a difficulty with keeping those processes under control. The processes now being lit as humanity comes into a new relationship where everybody is connected to everybody else without intermediaries, that social structure, that condition of massive interconnection that we call the internet, that changes everything in profound ways. They are modernizing this regime. They think they are going to control it, that property relations, legal relations, technology, Lawrence Lessig`s code doing the work of law kind of idea, that all of this is going to make them stable. But it is not going to do that, in my opinion. It is going to produce the hunger for the various kinds of freedom and the various kinds of liberation that the net makes possible, and if they stand between the people and that freedom, they are going to be pushed aside. Now, they have money; they have power; they have thought; they have influence. It does not have to happen to them.

WORTHINGTON: What if it turns out that people are content with the level of freedom that Windows 2010 provides them? What if some minimal level of the kind of freedom you`re talking about is enough to create satisfaction?

MOGLEN: Of course, in the meantime, in that world of 2010, we`ve moved towards being a pay-per-use society for culture. Because in the meantime, the book publishing industry hasn`t stood still. It`s selling e-books per read, and the music industry hasn`t stood still; it`s trying to sell you songs per listen. What you have in mind is a bargain in which we sort of stay the same as we migrate technologically. When you look at how it really functions - technologically, politically, economically - we find ourselves moving in a world in which we can have many different things, but staying the same is really hard. From the point of view of the copyright industries, the culture manufacturers, the limited term of copyright is unacceptable. What Disney went through to keep the mouse from expiring is just the beginning of that issue. Limited term is not acceptable. The first sale doctrine is not acceptable. Fair use rights are not acceptable. In the world of the electronic, absolutely free, frictionless copy, they need to move more and more towards a control environment. The traditional balance that lies underneath, that we no longer think about, where you just hand the newspaper to the guy sitting next to you when you leave the railroad train - that`s not what they`re thinking of, and the logic of the situation compels them not to think of it. The logic of the situation compels them to all or nothing solutions, and I think they`re going to get nothing instead of all.

But they are groping. You can see the deal trying to get made, even now - How do we work this out so we can sell this music for something, without wiping out our high moral ground position that you should pay full price and never be allowed to give it to anybody? How do we facilitate sharing, which people want to do, without giving away the store? I think that there will be intelligence directed at that. I don`t think all of this is going to be done in a hamfisted and thoughtless way. Jack Valenti has to die. You can`t go into the twenty-first century with Jack Valenti as the only face you have, because nineteen year olds are not going to accept that. There`s going to have to be a different way to do it. They need somebody as good as Chuck D, and they don`t have that yet. But there will be an attempt, there will be lots of attempts to find a way.

WORTHINGTON: Won`t some kinds of cultural production simply fall by the wayside in a world of free distribution?

MOGLEN: Of course, but look, the same is true with respect to pyramids. Without hydraulic despotism and the divine right kingship of the pharaoh, we will underproduce pyramids. Now, we`ve been underproducing pyramids for three thousand years, and pyramids are beautiful but it isn`t hurting us. Without the Renaissance style of provisional city-state leadership in Italy that Burckhardt referred to as the state as a work of art, you don`t get all kinds of villas and palaces. There`s nothing for Michelangelo to sculpt. You get a little bit of stuff for post-modern architects to build, but only if you`re building a Guggenheim museum. Sure, the structure of art and expression is related to the material understructure of society, you don`t have to be a Marxist to think that.

In a world of really free stuff, I think there would be a lot fewer Arnold Schwarzenegger movies. I think $100 million movies don`t represent a particularly good form of free stuff.

WORTHINGTON: Any sort of high initial capital cost cultural production seems hard to justify. Blade Runner probably doesn`t get made either.

MOGLEN: Absolutely. On the other hand we`re going to have a golden age of poetry such as the world has not seen in a thousand years. Even traditional art forms may do very well. The literature for two pianos is due for an enormous revival. I say, fifteen years from now the dominant form of two pianos literature is going to consist of one live and one dead pianist. The whole ability for people to engage in jamming with Sidney Bechet has only begun to be discussed. What Bill Evans did in "Conversations With Myself" is going to become conversations with everybody. The only problem is that if I want to jam with Sidney Bechet I can`t, because somebody owns Sidney Bechet`s music on record and I`ve got to deal with them in court. There are ranges of collaboration; there are new forms of art; there are new ways of making and delivering everything, including dramatic video, that will come up, and there are art forms whose names we don`t know yet that are going to happen. All of that is sure. But you meet people who say - But if there weren`t property then nobody would make the Flintstones - you have to say, well, what do we get on the other side? What`s the name of all those art forms that we can`t have now and that we will have then?

The social accounting is done in a funny way. You could, for sure, say that the piano was going to kill off a whole bunch of literature for the clavichord. Until Keith Jarrett recorded an album of clavichord improvisations in the mid 80s, I don`t think anybody had played a clavichord on record in decades, and the idea of clavichord improvisations was deader than Mozart. Of course technological change changes the forms of art. There`s no question about this. And the social environment too. Americans listen to music; they don`t make music. That`s a whole profound change in one generation, really, in the history of music in the world. Music was a thing people made; now it`s a thing we hear. I am a non-maker, listener to music. I have an enormous privilege, as I see it, to live at the beginning of the digital era, when music from all over the world is available, before it has all been homogenized and paved over. I am deeply grateful for living at the time that I live, but I am product of a world in which, unlike Mendelssohn making his music at home in the evenings with his family and his friends, I am a consumer of music. I listen to other people`s music. There`s no question, all of the arts are going to be altered by this. Sure. We`re not scared of that.

WORTHINGTON: Necessarily homogenized?

MOGLEN: There a zillion different things that could happen. The next great Oud virtuoso may be a fifteen year old Vietnamese girl who has never seen an Oud and who has never been in the middle east but who is listening to one of the great, or seven of the great, Oud virtuosi from the Sudan, and from Iraq, and is deciding to play that thing herself. Who knows in which directions all of this goes? I can listen now to a choral musician from Senegal playing with a Norwegian vocalist and a mouth harp player. There`s Kirsten Braten-Berg`s album, called `From Senegal to Setesdal,` here we have musicians from all over the world collaborating in ways that were never really thought about before.

It isn`t necessarily homogenizing, but of course there are forces for homogeneity doing very well at the moment, and it is their activity in the net that we are primarily talking about. They are the people who want to encrypt. They are the people who want to own. The musicians all over the world looking for an audience, they don`t show as their primary concern that they want to encrypt their music and keep it away from people. Ownership and homogenization have a relationship to one another. They`re not just casually, contextually found in the same places. They exist where they exist for reasons. The goal of reaching the mass audience and getting paid for each and every eardrum is also the goal of homogenizing, to have broad appeal.

WORTHINGTON: It`s cheaper if you first standardize the eardrums.

MOGLEN: It`s not just cheaper, it`s not much of a marketing opportunity if you don`t standardize. That`s what the beauty of being separated from production is. Nike doesn`t care how an actual shoe is made anymore, because they don`t make any shoes. They make image, they make icon. The icon is valuable precisely because everybody knows it.

WORTHINGTON: What kind of penetration does free software, GNU, Linux, whatever, need to have before these processes start to organize themselves?

MOGLEN: It has it now. Whatever the relevant level of penetration is, it`s here. We`re now living in a very odd world with respect to free software. Under the skin of the beast, free software is everywhere. The penetration in the server market is nothing to worry about. So what we really mean is, what`s the difference between the technologically clued-in and the technologically checked-out? And the answer is, what they use. How big does the technologically clued-in population have to be before new ways of thinking about politics and economics and society take hold? Quite large. But we`re going there. It`s like asking, `What would the opposition to gas taxes in the United States be like in 1910?" - "Not enough drivers."

We are going to a society which is not this one. We are always aiming at a moving target. The problem with analysis based on where we are now is that we are standing in the middle of tidal wave and trying to figure out how wet we are around the ankles. It just doesn`t matter very much. One of the many lessons I`ve learned from Richard Stallman over my years of working with him is that I have strategic views and I would say, `Richard, we need to have this. We need to have that. We need to do this or this or this to meet the current situation,` and Richard would say, `What needs doing will get done. What people need, what people want, they`ll make."

WORTHINGTON: That seems to be GNU`s organizing principle.

MOGLEN: That`s right, and that`s an important lesson. We will get where we are going when the people who need to be there are around. I don`t know how long that takes. I don`t know exactly what the numbers are. I don`t worry that they won`t show up, and maybe questions in the form `how many` are really questions in the form, `How do you know they`re all going to show up sooner or later?`

WORTHINGTON: Or the question might be, how do you know there`s not going simply to be a permanent 10%, or whatever percentage, of the deeply technologically literate, and everybody else? Two years ago, I corresponded with three people who used PGP - eight years ago I didn`t know anybody using it - and today I still know three people who regularly use PGP. It does seem, and this might just be a generational question, that in today`s world there`s a certain group of people who are comfortable with these technologies and a larger group who aren`t.

MOGLEN: I think you are right there, but PGP may not be the good test, after all. The questions now that you want to ask have a pretty fine granularity. They have to do with which kinds of technology will get widely adopted and which kinds won`t. Non-transparent encryption of e-mail is a specialist thing. If we sewed it into Eudora and distributed it to everybody they`d all use it, but they wouldn`t know. They use the secure socket layer in their browser but they don`t really know it`s there because they don`t see the little lock at the bottom of the page. This bites them sometimes. People you know are using encryption, they just don`t know that they`re encrypting. I do not think that encryption in itself will become something that everyone will know a lot about and care a lot about in the future.

WORTHINGTON: How about open-source operating systems?

MOGLEN: Now there, of course, eight years ago you didn`t know anybody, and five years ago you knew four, and this year how many? Hundreds?

WORTHINGTON: Actually, no. Probably just several.

MOGLEN: That surprises me. If you go across the street and ask the undergraduates, it`s cool, and to be a CS guy and not to have a Linux box, that`s a weird thing. But we don`t want the computer to be too fetishized as the most important thing in everybody`s life. These are tools, and we do expect most people to have a pretty tool-like approach to them. What people are going to use these switches for, and how much they are going to care about who controls them, that remains to be seen. My sense is a little different from yours, because I believe that kids growing up with computers are going to want to know how to change them.

WORTHINGTON: I hope that`s true.

MOGLEN: And you`ve expressed some doubt about that and that`s the experiment we are conducting. We will find out which of us is right about that in another ten or fifteen years, and a lot rides on that.

WORTHINGTON: The hopeful part of your story seems to lie in kids growing up on free software in Southeast Asia, kids who aren`t being educated on Windows at all.

MOGLEN: Well, some of them will use Windows. Of course, the problem is money. The problem is the very thing which in the end turns out to be really important in the contemporary, local environment. Microsoft makes $400 billion a year selling stuff, than which there is better available for nothing. In the pure microeconomics of this you would expect it to go away. Now, there are a whole lot of things that can be done to stave off the law of supply and demand - you can advertise heavily; you can give people fear, uncertainty and doubt; you can do all sorts of things - but at the end of the day there are billions of people all over the world who need computers and software and some way to connect. This is a major issue of economic resources. How can the free software not win? Where`s the money going to come from to buy all those Windows licenses? We are, after all, engaged in a capitalist enterprise on a bad business model. If they want everybody to use it, at a minimum the price has to be zero. At a minimum.

WORTHINGTON: Couldn`t you have asked yourself the same question, and answered it with the same note of scorn in your voice six years ago?

MOGLEN: Yes, you could. I don`t know whether it takes fifteen or twenty years to do Microsoft in: what difference does it make? They`re going down. You can`t make less good stuff and sell it at high prices indefinitely when the good stuff is free. For different users there are different answers to these questions, but in a place where an awful lot of people all over the world need software and are not going to pay $90 for an operating system (which doesn`t work, but which is compatible with all the other nonworking operating systems all over the planet) they`ll produce something else, and the something else will be free. And then they`ll have an investment in free. Are the French actually going to require opensource software for government use? No, I don`t think so, but it would be interesting to see what happens. Sooner or later, somebody will somewhere begin to recognize that societies pay pretty heavily for Windows too.

WORTHINGTON: I didn`t realize the French government was interested in the idea.

MOGLEN: No, there`s legislation pending: a couple of senators who are interested in the idea. But, again, massive amounts of resources are going into this. People are going to give up eventually. I don`t know how long it will take.

WORTHINGTON: We`ll see. We should have this conversation again twenty years from now.

MOGLEN: Oh, we`ll all be having this conversation constantly